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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 5:30 pm 
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Theon is a uniquely impotent combination of dumb and arrogant. Sure he wreaks some havoc, but he never achieves his main goal, and ends up in a pretty fucked up place.

BTW, I really cannot wait for next season. And I cannot wait for the the final episodes of this season. It's becoming real hard not to spoil what comes, I see people talking about certain characters on twitter and I can't help but squirm.

I'm going to test out hiding text for spoilers, these aren't huge spoilers more indication of what you will not see in books/seasons 1-4. Highlight to read. If you don't want to read it just scroll on by.

The color for hiding text is #D6D6C0 in the [ ] put color=#D6D6C0 and then after spoilers end [] with /color inside text will appear when highlighted.

Note: If you 'preview' your hidden text will be slightly visible, but when posted it is hidden, the preview background is a slightly darker color.

I feel better.

SPOILERS BEGIN HERE

And I also see people awaiting the White Walkers and I'm kinda sad. I actually wish the prologue had not been included. It's not that important to the first season, or second, or third. or the fourth. It might have been better if they had been introduced into the story at the Wall and seemed so damned important.

They're on the edges of the story, yes, almost all of their stuff is beyond the Wall, so it's not important to about 80% of the story in 4 books. They're an ancient rumor. I can only assume they're more important in books 5-7(book 5 having been original half of book 4) but we see only little snippets of them in books 1-4, much like the prologue.

So, don't expect them in more than drips and drabs at the Wall.

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Last edited by Jam8 on Tue May 17, 2011 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 5:35 pm 
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Jam8 wrote:
BTW, I really cannot wait for next season. And I cannot wait for the the final episodes of this season. It's becoming real hard not to spoil what comes, I see people talking about certain characters on twitter and I can't help but squirm.



...It's what makes me wonder if this show will work for TV audiences with the amount of....Nevermind. I'll wait until the season is over or until the major shit starts going down before I start speculating audience's reaction to the inevitable.

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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 5:55 pm 
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I'll wait until it happens to keep from spoiling it, but I sense that a certain huge shift in the first book will not be as important to them as it was the reader. The structure of the show isn't as focused, you aren't in the character's heads as much.

It's almost a different story, really, same plot, but the telling of the story is so different it feels new to me. I know the plot, but it's not the same. The Renly/Loras scene is just one of many I can see happening, it's the nature of the show now. I get it, as long as I'm ahead of it, I'm okay with changes.

BUT, there are a lot of people on Twitter who absolutely love Arya and Tyrion, and a number of Jon, Dany and Catelyn fans as well, and since what happens ends up with blowback on a lot of characters the scene might not hit them as hard as it did reading it, but the after effects might immediately click for them, there's so much bad shit that comes it. It's hard for people not to wonder what happens to their favorite characters after what happens happens.

I think greenlighting the second season early might help overall, people will know they'll have some more information, if not closure, on the effects of the events of the first season.

Nothing worse than a 1 season show with cliffhangers. And the first book ends in about a dozen different kinds of cliffhangers. It's not urgent, urgent must know, but it's hard not to wonder.

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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 5:59 pm 

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Crutch wrote:
Jam8 wrote:
BTW, I really cannot wait for next season. And I cannot wait for the the final episodes of this season. It's becoming real hard not to spoil what comes, I see people talking about certain characters on twitter and I can't help but squirm.



...It's what makes me wonder if this show will work for TV audiences with the amount of....Nevermind. I'll wait until the season is over or until the major shit starts going down before I start speculating audience's reaction to the inevitable.


One of my favorite aspects of the books is that absolutely no one is safe. Some stuff you see coming, like a certain huge event in book 3. I had a feeling something was going to go down at it and was dreading what it might be, but I never expected what actually happened. Martin does a great job of lulling you into a sense of security, and then shoving the literary sword into your gut. You'll occasionally see the blow coming, but you never expect it to hurt as much it does.

It's this aspect of the series that I think will hit hard with the new TV audience and leave them desperate for more at the end of the season. I really can't wait to see the reactions to what's coming in this season, and usually I couldn't care less about such things. It's also one of the bigger differences between the books and the show. The events hit harder in the books because it feels as if you spend more time with the characters, but I think some events will be just as dramatic for the new TV audience because they simply will not expect it.

EDIT: I'm curious how Jorah's reveal will play out in season 3. It was quite a surprise to me when I read it, but it's already been spoiled in season 1. I don't recall Jorah being outed specifically as a spy in book 1. Am I misremembering, or is this indeed something that was added into the show?


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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 6:21 pm 
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Bullio wrote:
EDIT: I'm curious how Jorah's reveal will play out in season 3. It was quite a surprise to me when I read it, but it's already been spoiled in season 1. I don't recall Jorah being outed specifically as a spy in book 1. Am I misremembering, or is this indeed something that was added into the show?


Also with his past wife wasn't mentioned until book 2 I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:42 pm 
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Yeah, Jorah wasn't outed until later.

But Dany still doesn't know, and her not knowing is what is important to that scene, that the viewer knows isn't as important. The scene should work out dramatically, it just won't be a shock to the viewer, but it sure will piss Dany off. It also makes Jorah more important to watch.

His motives are murky, either way.

It's almost a different story seen from the omnipresent perspective the show takes. We see things we only heard about or guessed at in the books.
It is a less robust story, less nuanced in ways, but it still makes for great TV.

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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 5:50 pm 
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Just caught the latest episode today.

My thoughts are that, for the most part, the series is handling the story lines pretty well. Obviously, undertaking a series that comprises so many characters and plot lines would be pretty daunting. Understandably, the producers and writers had to do some melding of characters and dispensing of extraneous side line stuff for the sake of the story. It's interesting to watch the liberties they take to keep the story moving or to keep the intrigue going on.

Ned's ship isn't sunk in the first book until later (don't want to give anything away here), but I like how they've done it here. It works.

Lisa Arryn, once again, does not look at all like what she's portrayed in the book. But it's pretty well established that this is the norm for this series. With that said, I think Sean Bean is a great Ned, Sansa looks pretty much perfect, as does Bran, and Ser Loras.

The gay angle between Renly and Loras is kind of cheap, I think. Yeah, it might have been *slightly* implied in the book but so slightly I didn't really catch it (and I've read the books several times). But, whatever, I guess they felt they needed that angle for whatever reason. It works, I guess.

By the way, Renly also looks zilch like he's described in the book. He doesn't act the same either. The character on the series is far more of a wuss.


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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 6:35 pm 
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I was a little miffed by the lack of muff on the red haired whore. I dare say there was no such thing as a landing strip back in the day.

Also, in the book, wasn't the scene with the widow, the boy, the teat, and the horrified sister done in private? I understand they have to combine scenes to keep within time limits and all that, but that was a just a bit too much.

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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 8:09 pm 

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GodShifter wrote:
Just caught the latest episode today.

My thoughts are that, for the most part, the series is handling the story lines pretty well. Obviously, undertaking a series that comprises so many characters and plot lines would be pretty daunting. Understandably, the producers and writers had to do some melding of characters and dispensing of extraneous side line stuff for the sake of the story. It's interesting to watch the liberties they take to keep the story moving or to keep the intrigue going on.

Ned's ship isn't sunk in the first book until later (don't want to give anything away here), but I like how they've done it here. It works.

Lisa Arryn, once again, does not look at all like what she's portrayed in the book. But it's pretty well established that this is the norm for this series. With that said, I think Sean Bean is a great Ned, Sansa looks pretty much perfect, as does Bran, and Ser Loras.

The gay angle between Renly and Loras is kind of cheap, I think. Yeah, it might have been *slightly* implied in the book but so slightly I didn't really catch it (and I've read the books several times). But, whatever, I guess they felt they needed that angle for whatever reason. It works, I guess.

By the way, Renly also looks zilch like he's described in the book. He doesn't act the same either. The character on the series is far more of a wuss.


I glossed over Renly being gay (and completely missed the Renly/Loras thing, as well), but when I was told about Renly I thought, "yeah, that makes sense." It's subtle enough to miss if you're not looking for it, but if you are or have been made aware, it's rather obvious.


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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 8:23 pm 
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GodShifter wrote:

The gay angle between Renly and Loras is kind of cheap, I think. Yeah, it might have been *slightly* implied in the book but so slightly I didn't really catch it (and I've read the books several times). But, whatever, I guess they felt they needed that angle for whatever reason. It works, I guess.

By the way, Renly also looks zilch like he's described in the book. He doesn't act the same either. The character on the series is far more of a wuss.


No. It is far more than he did everything he could to point to it without having them kiss or having someone say "They're fucking each other." and they are tertiary characters in the book, with almost no page time compared to some secondary characters*(More in the spoilers).

Renly is described as looking like Robert did in his youth. I can see this on the show. Something around the eyes. He's a younger thinner version of Robert. You pack a couple hundred pounds on that actor and I bet he'd look a lot like Mark Addy.

SPOILERS for the books (highlight to read if you don't mind being spoiled or have read the books):




Renly was never that brave. He ran out of King's Landing with his tail between his legs after Robert's death. He knew shit was going down, even had offered to help Ned maneuver around Cersei, but when Ned shot it down, Renly did nothing at all himself. No wait, he did do something, he ran.

Renly, in fact, is never proven to be any sort of brave or strong. He's popular, a paper tiger, and he gets extremely stupidly arrogant after his crowning, y'know, after he names Loras the leader of his Rainbow Guard, and before he dies and Loras steals his body to bury it secretly.

Renly and Loras also spent Renly's honeymoon together with Renly's wife/Lora's sister Margery. Margery likely was the only one who had personal knowledge of the relationship.

Renly said so, during his parlay with Stannis. Using it as proof of Margery's virginity to Stannis who said she was likely to remain a virgin in Renly's bed.

But, y'know it's just implied. Over and over again. There's more that takes place later. Cersei and Jaime both imply it to and about Loras in later books.

I'm not saying you can't read it as a very very weirdly close friendship, but in a world where a homosexual relationship might be tolerated of a lesser noble this type of thing is probably not acceptable for a Lord or King, given the need to secure an heir and such. They kept it a secret because the world they live in would not accept it, we never got close enough to them to see it, the show is told in a different manner, so we see it. It's not cheap, just different.

It's a structural change, and Martin says he had planned this relationship, pointing to the Rainbow Guard as a particularly heavy handed hint at it that most people wrote off because that type of thing wasn't ever expected.

Also, he decided he could never use the word 'gay' to describe the relationship because it's a modern usage, so it's all done in innuendo, taunts and inference. And the Rainbow.

And I know I sound hard on Renly, but he comes off as extremely arrogant, I can see how Loras may have puffed him up when he really had no credentials, Renly fought in no war, he had no reason to be a bad ass. He was described as a bit of a dandy early on, fretting more about his clothes and putting on that stupid tourney after his crowning. He was all about appearances.

If anything Renly in the show is toned down in his flamboyance.


*We know more about Brynden The Blackfish and his 'refusing to marry' ways. You did catch that one, right? Catelyn's uncle and father had a falling out because the Blackfish refused to marry a chosen bride and then at all. It's pretty clear he's either gay or has some weird kink. But he's otherwise a decent fellow. Like Loras he's a genuinely heroic guy who happens to not be a heterosexual.

Renly's the weakest of the three, a 'king' with no claim, a hero for no real reason to people who liked the way he dressed and talked.

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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 8:59 am 

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I had no idea Sean Bean had this type of acting performance in him...great stuff...wish I'd read the book before the series though...to the readers, was Viserys' death an accurate depiction of the account in the book?


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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 9:23 am 
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heavythisaxe wrote:
I had no idea Sean Bean had this type of acting performance in him...great stuff...wish I'd read the book before the series though...to the readers, was Viserys' death an accurate depiction of the account in the book?



Almost, in the book Drogo puts the pot on Viserys's head and leaves it there, the show went more for the visual of the liquid gold flowing down. Honestly, I had always remembered it like that, no pot on his head. I didn't even notice it until I went back just now.

There are a few differences between the books and the show that are minor, the Dothraki wear bells in their braids, and Viserys is called the Cart King because he couldn't keep pace and rode in a cart after having his horse taken away. Minor things. And three of the Bloodriders held him, not two.


Here's the end of the sequence from the book:

Quote:
It had grown so silent in the hall that she could hear the bells in Khal Drogo’s hair, chiming softly with each step he took. His bloodriders followed him, like three copper shadows. Daenerys had gone cold all over. “He says you shall have a splendid golden crown that men shall tremble to behold.”
Viserys smiled and lowered his sword. That was the saddest thing, the thing that tore at her afterward … the way he smiled. “That was all I wanted,” he said. “What was promised.”
When the sun of her life reached her, Dany slid an arm around his waist. The khal said a word, and his bloodriders leapt forward. Qotho seized the man who had been her brother by the arms. Haggo shattered his wrist with a single, sharp twist of his huge hands. Cohollo pulled the sword from his limp fingers. Even now Viserys did not understand. “No,” he shouted, “you cannot touch me, I am the dragon, the dragon, and I will be crowned!”
Khal Drogo unfastened his belt. The medallions were pure gold, massive and ornate, each one as large as a man’s hand. He shouted a command. Cook slaves pulled a heavy iron stew pot from the firepit, dumped the stew onto the ground, and returned the pot to the flames. Drogo tossed in the belt and watched without expression as the medallions turned red and began to lose their shape. She could see fires dancing in the onyx of his eyes. A slave handed him a pair of thick horsehair mittens, and he pulled them on, never so much as looking at the man.
Viserys began to scream the high, wordless scream of the coward facing death. He kicked and twisted, whimpered like a dog and wept like a child, but the Dothraki held him tight between them. Ser Jorah had made his way to Dany’s side. He put a hand on her shoulder. “Turn away, my princess, I beg you.”
“No.” She folded her arms across the swell of her belly, protectively.
At the last, Viserys looked at her. “Sister, please … Dany, tell them … make them … sweet sister …”
When the gold was half-melted and starting to run, Drogo reached into the flames, snatched out the pot. “Crown!” he roared. “Here. A crown for Cart King!” And upended the pot over the head of the man who had been her brother.
The sound Viserys Targaryen made when that hideous iron helmet covered his face was like nothing human. His feet hammered a frantic beat against the dirt floor, slowed, stopped. Thick globs of molten gold dripped down onto his chest, setting the scarlet silk to smoldering … yet no drop of blood was spilled.
He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon.

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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 9:53 am 
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Yeah, I had caught that about The Blackfish. So there was obviously something going on there.

Thanks for writing all that stuff on Renly, Jam. That's good insight and I, obviously, had not caught it before re: Loras and Renly and Renly's character himself. But you're right on. "Rainbow Guard", indeed.

Okay, now, once again, I'm an episode behind. I take it Viserys gets the grease in the next episode. Fun!


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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 9:58 am 

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Thanks Jam...damn library holds...I need to get to reading the book so I can get caught up...


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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 10:06 am 
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Ditto, thanks Jam for posting that. Was awesome to read. I have the feeling I'm going to have to pick up these books sooner or later.

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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 10:30 am 
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They're well worth it. I'm about halfway through the second book and can't get enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 11:02 am 
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The wonders of ebooks. It was a simple cut and paste maneuver.


Episode 7 really sets the final gambit into motion. Those who have read it will know what I mean, they're going to pace it like the book, there should be an episode or two after that pivotal scene.

There's a scene in episode 7 that if I were Ned I would've smacked Sansa upside the head and said "Grow some girl balls and be more like Arya! Damn!"

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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 11:08 am 
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Heh. I see you took advantage of the opportunity to see episode seven before it was aired. I haven't even seen episode six yet ...


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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 11:11 am 

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Isn't #7 available via HBO On The Go?...might need to look into that...


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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 11:18 am 
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Yup HBOGo-take-a-shit because you're gonna be waiting a while.

I had no choice. It was there. Took 5 hours to finally see the whole thing. I watched the first 45 minutes twice. You can't seek ahead on that damned thing, it kicks you back to the beginning. Why have the seek bar?

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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 12:59 pm 
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There's a webrip of the episode out now. Should be easy enough for a torrent search or something like that.

I usually check sceper.eu for that kind of stuff... for informational purposes only, of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:40 am 

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No discussion of this week's episode? Robert's death? Drogo swearing to the mountains he'll cross the sea and Daenerys getting all hot and bothered when he started talking about raping women and enslaving children?

Did taskmaster kill the thread with his talk of illegal downloading? Whatta jerk.

He'll be missed:

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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:43 pm 

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Not sure about everyone else, but I'm two episodes behind. I'll finally have the chance to catch up later today, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:55 pm 
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Iron Krullet wrote:
No discussion of this week's episode? Robert's death? Drogo swearing to the mountains he'll cross the sea and Daenerys getting all hot and bothered when he started talking about raping women and enslaving children?

Did taskmaster kill the thread with his talk of illegal downloading? Whatta jerk.

He'll be missed:

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Having read the books there aren't many surprises for me, but I am appreciating the way the directors are handling the cliffhangers at the end of each episode. Even knowing everything I still say "fuck" every time an episode ends...I hate waiting.

Speaking of which, the next book coming out on July 12th ... fucking finally.


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 Post subject: Re: Song of Ice and Fire HBO series
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:48 pm 
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I can't say having picked up and completed books 1 and 2 in the midst of the show has disappointed me. A lot of the casting is ridiculously spot on and they've got a really good handle on how to dish out exposition without making it confusing or tedious. Can't wait for the next episode.

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